Spectres: Faster Casting/Attacks VS Minion Damage?

TL;DR: Minion Damage > Casting/Attack Speed

I've seen people 4Link spectres with Minion Life, Faster Casting and Lesser Multiple Projectiles.

Wouldn't it be better to replace Faster Casting with Minion Damage?

Minion Damage

Calculation (Min level):
100 Original Minion Damage
Raised 50% less damage
Supported 45% increased damage
Final = (100 + 45) * 0.65 = 94.25

Calculation (Max level):
100 Original Minion Damage
Raised 0% less damage (?)
Supported 77% increased damage
Final = (100 + 77) = 177

Faster Casting

Calculation (Min level):
100 Original Minion Damage
Raised 50% less damage
Supported 20% increased casting speed (which we can treat as more damage)
Final = 100 * 0.65 * 1.20 = 78

Calculation (Max level):
100 Original Minion Damage
Raised 0% less damage (?)
Supported 39% increased casting speed (which we can treat as more damage
Final = 100 * 1.39 = 139

Minion Damage gives 94.25-177 while Faster C/A gives 78-139.

These calculations seem to indicate that at both high and low levels, Casting/Attack Speed sucks for spectres.

(Big Caveat: ignoring passives and unique mods which devalue Minion Damage and Haste which devalues Faster Casting -_-)

your correct, plus minion damage applies to all damage types as well, where as faster casting/attack will only affect either a caster or fighter respectively.

people just look at what it does, not the value of the ability. which I find is very sad.

You simply defalcate the fact, that you dont get the full damage of the minion-dmg-gem cuz of the passives/items, as with the normal ~ +200% minion dmg a +50% minion-dmg from gem are just 1/3 (cuz calculated with the base value). FCR/IAR are a new seperate value, and thus the whole effect counts, as there are (as far as I know)no items/passives that increase the speed of attacks/casting. (the speed is like a "new dimension" and profits multiplicative of the +dmg from items/passives)

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Seelenernter wrote:

You simply defalcate the fact, that you dont get the full damage of the minion-dmg-gem cuz of the passives/items, as with the normal ~ +200% minion dmg a +50% minion-dmg from gem are just 1/3 (cuz calculated with the base value). FCR/IAR are a new seperate value, and thus the whole effect counts, as there are (as far as I know)no items/passives that increase the speed of attacks/casting. (the speed is like a "new dimension" and profits multiplicative of the +dmg from items/passives)

Hence the caveat in the main post, I was hiding nothing. In fact, I was hoping for someone to reply with solid calculations and argument to prove me wrong. I was disappointed.

The turning point seems to be near +90% Minion Damage, which is the amount needed if you want to get all the "Minions" nodes without getting extra Minion Damage nodes. If you get more than that from passives/equipment then Faster Casting is better, but not by much.

My build plan gives me +60% from passives and equipment so Minion Damage is better.

With no passives, Faster Casting is ~20% worse than Minion Damage. With all the passives it's ~2-5% better (depending on gem level).

If you have all level 20 gems, 20% quality and all passives then Faster Casting is ~7% better. If you add the uniques to that then it's 12% better.

However, for most of the game a Minion Damage support is better.

Well your maths are wrong.

increasing the attack speed by 20% isn't a net augmentation of dps by 20%.
it's : 1/0,8 = 1,25 => 25%

and for the max one :
1/0,61 = 1,64 => 64%

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nemeros wrote:

Well your maths are wrong.

increasing the attack speed by 20% isn't a net augmentation of dps by 20%.
it's : 1/0,8 = 1,25 => 25%

and for the max one :
1/0,61 = 1,64 => 64%

Lets test this theory.

Lightning Warp (without any supports, passives or item mods is)
Cast Time = 1 Second (from tool tip)
Casts per second = 1.00 (from character sheet)

Lightning Warp with a Level 4 Faster Casting (23% Increased Cast Speed)
Cast Time = 0.81 Seconds
Casts per second = 1.23 (from character sheet)

So the 23% Increased Cast Speed has improved my Casts per second by 23% and not reduced my cast time by 23%.

This means the percentage on a Faster Casting support gem can be treated as a straight percentage damage multiplier.

no.

your cast time has decreased by 23% : 1(sec)/1,23 => 0.81sec

So this mean that in 1sec you will now cast ... 1(sec) / 0.81 => 1,23 spells


So the net dps gain is now : 1/0.77 => 29% and not 23%

Decreasing/increasing cast time is tricky :p

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nemeros wrote:

no.

your cast time has decreased by 23% : 1(sec)/1,23 => 0.81sec

So this mean that in 1sec you will now cast ... 1(sec) / 0.81 => 1,23 spells


So the net dps gain is now : 1/0.77 => 29% and not 23%

Decreasing/increasing cast time is tricky :p

So tricky I fear you have confused yourself.

You say that the dps gain is given by 1 divided by 0.77, yet this 0.77 seems to have been pulled from thin air. It is clear the casts per second is 0.81 as you have stated above.

The new DPS is given by 1 over 0.81 which is clearly 123% of the original damage.

Hence, you are either a troll or something far worse.