State of PvP

It's been a week since the start of the PvP tournaments, and as new comer to PvP (never played prior to this patch) who has been relatively successful this is my opinion/feedback/response to the patch that was released to PoE in december. My post will refer directly to LLD and LLD ONLY. However some points presented may also apply to HLD but i have no sustained argument over that as i have no experience.

I would firstly like to say that this is purely my opinion, although the majority of my guild mates(LLD/calamity, a hardcore LLD/HLD PvP guild) agree on the arguments i'm about to present. Thus, take no harm as i only intend to try improve PvP. Why i need to is left debatable as the alpha testers/qa testers and game development had a long patch (5 months) between 1.2 and 1.3. Of course i don't know anything behinds the scenes as im not part of it (denied lol), but it's hard for me to find a reason why 5 months isn't enough to find major bugs and fix them.

I will be as unbiased as possible. My build is currently a melee molten/heavy/cyclone 1h duelist/marauder. Achieved #1 and #2 in FFA Arena using Cyclone-Block red-Culling.



I have no reason to strengthen my build, nor promote another. Unlike all the Alpha testers, I don't have a build i need to protect, there is nothing for me to hide. Then again, i know nothing about alpha so i might just be spewing garbage. It's cheaper for me to buy PvP gear and do the events for the alternate arts than buy it outright off someone. I only PvP for the rewards. The frustration and disappointment is something i must endure, but it is also overcome by the enjoyment and excitement from forming new friends and having a great time in certain events such as 3v3.



The separation of said details from the general community has caused large hindrance in PvP's growth. Why should people PvP? What requirements does it take to be successful in PvP? Should the game adapt for it's players, or should the players adapt to the game? While it's true that it shouldn't be too easy, but the wall between players and PvP is just far too great at the moment. While creating a level 28 character does alleviate some of the struggles, it's is still very tough to accept in new players who are interested. This post will address some of these issues and provide alternatives or improvements that could be made in regards to the underlying problem of PvP within a PvE game and the integration of 2 parallels.

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With regards to Alpha,

There is ZERO transparency between non alpha and those who are. As i stated multiple times It's only an assumption, because there is nothing for me to KNOW. This is only 1 person's opinion, when we are a community. This is PvP discussion, not Alpha discussion. I might be wrong, so fix it for me. I'm not trying to anger anyone.

Fact is, there was a long period of time where we were told alphas and QA testers were working on bug fixing and balancing ETC, YET there are massive bugs and imbalance let through. The blame must go somewhere right?



Balancing


Balancing is currently a nightmare in PvP. This is mainly due to the trangle/circle that has been setup. While it may stray from the norm, it's the general trend.

The way LLD currently works is that X build will almost always beat Y build. And then Y will almost always beat Z builds. And to close it up, Z will almost always beat X build.

Even if this doesn't apply to every thing, the fact that as one build vsing another build, one build will almost always win every single time. There is usually little you can do to counter one build without breaking your build.

This results in one sided battles in 1v1, Swiss events are based on luck of which opponent you get until you reach the end. Blitz events are how fast you can kill those you can beat and how fast you can lose those you can't so you save time.

Fact of the matter is that even gem balance, skill balance or passive tree balance will never have enough of an impact to not break the Core PvE game to stabilize this issue.

However, the good news is that in the recent 3v3 events, promising results have shown up where strategy and tactics have allowed either team to sway the tide of battle. This is mainly due to the break in X>Y>Z>X because there are 3 variables on each team. Personally i found 3v3 to be the most enjoyable event thus far, with 6v6 CTF right behind. Least favourite events are Arena and blitz.

While there is much to change, i feel that swerving away from the static 1v1 into the dynamic 3v3 will allow a more prosperous PvP future.

Gear


Big debate, no doubt about it. I have already stated my opinion in other places but i'll go a little further this time.

Gear was, is and always will be a core part of PvP in any game. The issue with PoE is the insane disparity between gear levels. This is less noticeable in LLD but if you just look at the gear that HLD players have at the top of the ladder, then you'll understand what i'm coming from.

The ladder is a good representative of who has invested the most, to the least. While sure, being able to create a good build and play that build well is a large part of it, that's impossible without the gear you need in the first place. I find it odd, that people still argue the over this.

The easiest way to see the effect of this is to place same/similar builds with different gear levels and make them fight each other. Over the course of 100 games or what not (something large), the person with the better gear will have a higher win rate. Nothing fancy about that.

Ontop of that, read this post Success in PvP is based only on wealth.

Just like wealth improves PvE, it improves PvP creating an imbalance which shouldn't exist.

Leagues/PvP popularity


While my assumption will never be 100%, this is what i think and this follows onto gear. When you gear a PvP character, you effectively break that build for PvE and vice versa. To integrate PvP into new leagues which require farming and building of gear on characters gets a bit out of hand. If we look on the otherside, the fact that players are playing the new leagues means that they are leaving all their permanent league gear and wealth behind. If one wanted to PvP, they have the perfect opportunity on Standard/Hardcore with unused characters and a large currency/gear pool to fund them for PvP. The fact that they are on permanent leagues means it doesn't interfere their regular gameplay in leagues and the cross between PvE and PvP is no longer there.

However, this is NOT the case because frankly, people don't care about PvP in PoE. We play this game as an ARPG genre, not some fighting simulator. Realistically, if people wanted to PvP they would play a PvP specific and engineered games such as the MOBA genres, FPS shooters and streetfighter-esqe titles. If we explore this topic further, people playing leagues will be farming higher level zones, high level maps and endgame content. A place where LLD gear (current primary focus of PvP) does not exist. Their only option is to farm LLD gear instead or spend currency to make a PvP character rather than build their own character.

To consider trading off part of your core game experience just to even touch the surface of another aspect is a bit disappointing in my opinion. Thus, a player chooses their balance between growing your current PvE character or entering into something new and frightening as it's already filled with established PvPers who will have no mercy on you.

Why can't players be able to enjoy something without having to sacrifice so much to attain it?

Nevertheless this is just an assumption, and might be 100% bullshit.

PvE vs PvP


In 1.3, we've had so many changes towards PvE because of PvP. The integration of both aspects do NOT fit together, as i have already stated, PvP characters don't work in PvE and vice versa. I still don't understand how this border between PvE and PvP has still led to the forced combination of both elements.


If you've read this far, this will be what I believe to be the best option for said issues.

Seperate realm.


This is by far the simplest solution towards PvP. The ubiquitous seperation between PvP and PvE should expand to include realms, where PvE can be balanced on a PvE passive tree and same with PvP.

Why should arbitrary changes to one need to affect the other?

By having a separate realm where only PvP is possible, it allows the segregation between the two and many of the problems may be solved. When they are separate, we can then focus on PvP itself without regards to the core game.

In a PvP realm, there are many opportunities to improve balance, incite more players and provide a better experience. Perhaps in development, separate teams can work on separate aspects.

While what I'm about to say might sound outlandish, it is probably the closest thing we will ever get to balance.

To have a balanced field, all characters should have the same opportunities and this means levels and gear. Everyone should have the same amount of skill points, for both LLD and HLD and everyone should be able to craft ANY gear they want. Then we would see the ARPG genre of "vast ways to gear a character" implemented. So for example, if everyone could craft a 6t1 rare, or use whatever unique they wanted, then everyone would be on the same leveling field. This is essenetially what HLD is anyway, since all the Top players use BiS, or near BiS gear. By eliminating such a demanding requirement, this may attract more players too such as those who currently don't want to PvP, those who want to PvP but can't and people who don't even play Path of Exile.

If said thing happens, then gear and characters would be eliminated from the equation and PvP would become "skill/knowledge based". Those who can theorycraft the best builds, or utilize uniques to their maximum potential, fulfilling the "build enabling" aspect GGG has promoted for so long.

Due to the fact that it's on a seperate realm, it would allow GGG to balance and fine tune the system without affecting the core game.

Just imagine the possibilities of PvP when all people have the capabilities to prove their worth, rather than their wealth.

Improvements to the current system.


General

- Skill balancing. The 2 that come to mind is Cyclone and Tornado shot. How this got past testing is beyond me. I wouldn't be surprised if alpha testers hid their own builds. Only speculation, no pointing fingers.

- Freeze and Stun. There really needs to be more than 1 and 2 options respectively to deal with said effects. I know there are 35% avoidance helms, but that's not enough to counterplay perma freeze or perma stun.

- Damage output. Frankly, LLD just seems like a 1 shot fest. Whoever who one shot first wins. Not very intuitive if you ask me. Perhaps 25-40% damage reduction.

- The effect of latency. I can't stress this enough as an Australian player. Melee attacks will just not hit. Your positioning in server will be different to what you see on screen. Your flasks will pop too late due to the latency. In this LLD battle of one shots, it's just rediculous.

- Animate Guardian for premade characters. 3 frenzy charge differential is quite large

- The ability to go to all 3 towns as a premade character. Just disable leaving and attacking anything. This will actually allow premade characters to join Arena.

- Leo sells Ilvl 28 items when it should be ilvl 36 maybe? It's level 28 that we need

- Matchmaking is in a pretty bad state atm. From forcing you to queue against the same opponent multiple times to very long waiting times, it definitely requires a revamp.

- Queueing up as parties. Why can we solo q from anywhere, but playing with a party demands the same instance? This season is focused largely around LLD, however many characters are on premades which as i have listed above, can not leave the hideout.


- Desync. Do something about it.


FFA Arena

- Stop teleporting everyone in and out of instances. That way, you don't have to fix the bugs OF teleporting such as missing pot charges, missing invulnerability shield, health not recovered and horrible loading times due to optimsation.

- Some how reduce the particle effects in Arena, it lags enough already with such bad optimization that having 20 people spamming skills in a close vicinity can't make it any better.

- Spawn camping. Lose invulnerability after you move, not after you cast your aura or before you even load.

- Kill stealing. Tornado show + GMP + whatever + Cull. easy kills, easy life. Personally i don't know how to address this problem. I just use a cull gem myself to minimise the chances of getting killstealed. Whether this should be a strategy is a question i can't answer.

- Leaderboard pop up. This often appears after you respawn, and you must manually close it. When it does pop up it blocks the majority of the screen and you can't click through it.

- Respawning. Why do i need to manually click respawn? Under what situation do i NOT want to respawn? I can't even change gear, adjust passive or switch gems when dead. QA let down again.

- Desync.

Swiss

- Matchmaking
- Name pop ups for first to load
- RNG. To me, Swiss feels like a 100% RNG event because of the triangle/circle GGG has set up

For example, Last 2 swiss events i did.

4-0 all melee
0-4 all puncture trappers
4-0 all casters

Best result was 4th. Basically, if i never face a puncture trapper, i'll probably be undefeated. Whereas if i got 3 puncture trappers, then i'll be 3 losses and rest wins.

Though this won't apply to ALL classes/builds, it's very prominent nevertheless.

Blitz

- Matchmaking. Continue to be placed against the person i lost to 2 matches ago, rather than someone i haven't played against yet.

- Name pop ups. Whoever enters the arena first will know who the enemy is. In top LLD play, this is extremely important because you know who you are facing against and thus you can adjust your playstyle from the start.

3v3

- Name pop ups as well. While less important because there's a much lower chance to have all 3 of 1 party load before all 3 of the other.

6v6 CTF

- Failed to load instance, Crashing (PoE client has stopped responding), Attendance/popularity.


I feel that multiplayer teams should be the focus of PvP, as it is the most enjoyable with the most strategy and "skill/knowledge" involved. Other than crashing there haven't been too many issues other than the severe lack of attendance in some events.

When issues such as the ones i have listed are addressed, and the changes/adjustments made to the fundamentals of PvP to incorporate everyone rather than the oligarchy it currently is, we might be able to see more interest from current and future players. Path of Exile is KNOWN for it's amazing ARPG Genre, but why can't it reach that prestige in PvP as well? What is there limiting Path of Exile only to the ARPG Genre, when it has the potential to fulfill so much more.

GGG, you have achieved Game of the Year 2013 but you a capable of so much more. Path of Exile should be THE game for PvP like it is for ARPG, it's something you must aspire to whether or not you reach it.

And once again,

Just imagine the possibilities of PvP when all people have the capabilities to prove their worth, rather than their wealth.

With regards to Alpha,

There is ZERO transparency between non alpha and those who are. As i stated multiple times It's only an assumption, because there is nothing for me to KNOW. This is only 1 person's opinion, when we are a community. This is PvP discussion, not Alpha discussion. I might be wrong, so fix it for me. I'm not trying to anger anyone.

Fact is, there was a long period of time where we were told alphas and QA testers were working on bug fixing and balancing ETC, YET there are massive bugs and balance changes let through. The blame must go somewhere right?









I will be adding what i forgot, and improving it where possible.

As a final note, I myself bought my way in to PvP with wealth. This is something that i feel is a horrible aspect of PvP in PoE.



Please, discuss below. It'll be interesting to hear other people's opinions as this should be a community effort to improve something you all desire so much.

I have to agree with most of this,I've been lobbying for the separate realm since day one. The problem is,GGG wants the PvP in the new leagues I think. Mostly because they want people to continue to play in the leagues I feel. So what we have now,is watered down PvP,and a soon to be filler for the PvE leagues.

The 6v6 events,more or less,have been a joke unfortunately. 1v1 doesn't seem balanced at all,most games are 0-4 or 4-0 in best of 7's. Just smashing face,or getting r3kt all day. The 3's event I played in SC seemed to be the most balanced event I've played. I would like to see allot more 3v3 events in the future. The CTF events have annoyed several. From the very troll start of Cast on Death,which was let gone through by a tester. To the now frustrating mechanics of changing arenas in the middle of fights. Finally,"failed to join instances". As a tester,I'm a bit embarrassed. As a PvPer,I'm very frustrated. As a PoE player,I'm kinda let down. : (

The good news is,GGG takes the time to read feedback. I still have hopes for the future. I won't quit playing this game ever,until it becomes pay to win that is. I just may not be pvping after this season,if major things don't change.

P.S. I still heart you game!

I, myself, am fairly new to PvP, having started researching about LLD about a week before 1.3 hit. I threw together the first build that came to mind (perma-stunner using pillar) and went to the Sarn Arena. There I met many veteran PvPers, including some soon-to-be guildmates, who shared their knowledge with me. I joined the self-proclaimed "best SC LLD guild" and tried out a few more popular builds using random items I had in my stash. Then, I committed to one build idea and dumped all my available currency into it.



I was also brought to my current position through wealth. (Not quite as much wealth as some, but still a fair amount.) I'm a fairly casual player, but have been playing this game primarily on the softcore challenge leagues for about a year now. This left me with about 25ex of currency on Standard to invest in a pvp character. Though there are some who can create "top tier" builds with less, this amount is more or less the minimum one needs to invest to have any hope of getting within the top16 in a swiss. When it comes down to the same build vs the same build, the main thing that'll set the two apart is difference in gear.

I have a slightly different perspective on the 1v1s. I run a fairly unique build: ele nado shot templar with RT. Having such a unique build, my matchups don't simply follow a X beats Y beats Z setup. In my last swiss, I had several matches where it was not 4-0 or 0-4.

I also find the 3v3 and 6v6 events to be most enjoyable. 3v3 is in a pretty good state. However, I'd say the biggest issue with 6v6 at the moment is simply that there aren't enough players wanting to play PvP to make the event large enough. It's hard enough for someone to find 2 others to pvp together, let alone 5 more.

The biggest issue with PvP is GGG's failure to attract more players. The current metagame discourages diversity in types of builds, as there are a few builds that many players will view as "top tier builds" and aim to build those. As opposed to PvE, where players can still have fun and do well with sub-optimal builds, PvP presents to you this goal of being number one, and only number one. It's far more obvious to you that your build is not optimal when other players steamroll you. This is very discouraging to people trying to get into PvP.

#1 priority for GGG is to get more players... and thats only possible with an even playing field

+1

I like the idea of a separate realm for PvP, but with a few suggestions:

- crafted PvP gear should be around T2 or close to T1, but not T1. T1 should always come from PvE

- have a way to import gear from any League(not race) ONE-WAY. you cannot bring it back.

- PvP formats in terms of gear/gem, for example:

* Legacy = includes everything
* T2 = includes T2 and below
* Limited = includes T2, but bans some broken skills (Molten, Cyclone, Tornado shot)
* Precon = can only play Precons (GGG has to make better precons IMO)



As for audience, they might like Precon if they make them better, but ultimately, an "I win, you lose" kind of player (PVP mentality) is rare compared to the Explorer, Social, Casual player types. We might not get as much people.

As someone with 5000+ hours in Guild Wars (with Rank 1 GvG Exp), I haven't really touched PvP in PoE for the reasons above. There seem to be so many catch 22s.

Do I make my character in Standard where I have some currency, only to be blown apart by those who can simply afford more?

Do I make my character in Torment or Bloodlines, and dump my PvE character currency into a PvP character? If I do that, how can I expect to make my PvE character stronger to get more currency? When playing PvP, what can I do to upgrade my gear; there is no currency involved other than prizes.

Which league has more players? I have yet to enter into a single fight that isn't a Duel or Sarn Arena. Ques are empty? Who is queing where?

Is it even fair for me to say I simply can't no-life games any more? I have every bit of the knowledge and ability to be competitive (and a track record to prove it), but I lack the time that gives so many others a huge advantage.

It's a rough system. Definitely needs polish. I have confidence in GGG, so I'll be keeping my eye on it.

Here's my take on the points brought up by Skyforth, great post btw.

GENERAL

Skill Balancing - Direct nerfs to skills are not something I would recommend. My personal gripe is puncture trapping, but puncture is by itself in a good spot, and nerfing traps would affect casters who use traps that aren't necessarily op. My solution? Remove point blank in LLD. It gives the appropriate damage nerf to puncture trap users (pb gem gone, something like faster/slower proj can be used or culling) without affecting self cast puncture which isn't op, or spell trappers who aren't op either.

Freeze and Stun - Freeze gets hard countered by wanderlust and stun by chayula. If it is still op, buff wanderlust with + life or a resist (won't affect PvE much since wanderlusts are levelling stuff) and cut the life reduction on chayula to 10% reduced life (won't affect PvE much also since only CI users use it and they don't deal with life anyways).

Damage output - A flat 25% reduction on everyone is the only viable way to cut damage without nerfing anything in particular.

Latency and Desync - I chose to bundle these two together since even though they aren't directly related, I found that my high latency causes some rubberbanding, which in turn leads me to desync more in my movements. Solution? put back /oos or redesign the maps to have less sharp corners and small pockets where it's easier to desync when using a movement skill like whirling blades.

Animate Guardian - I am now convinced that PvP only characters are bugged and they should be able to go to the Sarn Staging Arena instead of hideout only. Just allow PvP only characters access to any place within normal, I don't see why that's a problem as our old PvP characters we're able to do that.

FFA ARENA

Teleporting Arenas - I seriously don't get the point of this. If an arena is full there is no need to teleport players out "for rebalancing". Instead why not have everyone respawn in the same arena, and when the arena is full put the 37th person in the next arena then so on and so forth. Then 5 minutes later, it shuffles people so we have 5 minute sessions of fighting the same people in the same arena then after 5 minutes we shuffle so no one complains about "being stuck with the same op people never getting kills for the whole event". Fuck random teleporting.

Particle Effects - I don't even have anything to say about this, GGG is basically forcing me to play with 20 fps since "immersion" and "no programmer" and all that shit. Other games have graphics settings, but I guess we're in 1990s here.

Spawn Camping - Invulnerability for X seconds or until we move upon respawn or arena change.

Kill Stealing - Instead of points by kill, why not points by total damage dealt throughout the whole event.

Leaderboard and Respawn - Cut off the leaderboard as no one really wants to read it while in the event, if you do then open a new tab online and check it there. Respawn should be automated like how it was before.

BLITZ

Matchmaking - The current algorithm needs a huge overhaul. I fought against this guy last time? Disable him from being matched with me again for X amount of matches. This guy won't give me ladder points? Don't match him with me just for the sake of having a match.

Name Popups - Just have both contestant's name on top near the score throughout the fight. Problem Solved.


These are just my takes on all the major points currently being brought up in LLD. My emphasis now is on how the balance team handles all the OP skills with the next balance patch.

PvP events should definitely be in temp leagues during temp leagues. It's cool that Fyndel and his merry bunch of exalts get to wave their dicks around and 2-shot everything, but for the casual PvPer, having literally no chance against anyone ever is a cuntshunt.

If I lose entirely because of gear, I want to at least have had the opportunity to be on the same level as my opponent; by starting the league at the same time.

This is what temp leagues are for.

Let Shattered and his cantankerous amount of chaos do their thing between leagues, when the greenhorns have had a whole three months to prepare.